张霞、亚当：我们想研究和学习这里的历史

编者按：上海之所以成为上海，因为有这样一批“上海人”，他们对城市的历史、生活、文化充满热爱与期待，成为城市精神的生动写照。《住在武康大楼》专栏，跟随陈保平、陈丹燕老师，走进一栋百年建筑的日常生活与公共记忆，听听大楼居住者和风貌保护区总规划师的讲述，从一个人、一个家庭、一栋楼、一个街区去感悟这座城市丰满的血肉和涌动的灵魂。

一个俄国人嫁给了美国人，然后一起到中国来研究“法租界”历史。他们对武康大楼是一见钟情，一住就是八九年，然后对这里的街区发生了兴趣，继而研究这个街区的历史。

张霞、亚当一家

问:谢谢接受我们的访问，请您告诉我们，您叫什么名字?

K: 我的中文名字是张霞，但是我的俄罗斯名字是Katya，或者Kat，大多数人都是叫我Kat。这是我的老公，他的中文名字是亚当，或者是叫Adam，Adam是他真正的名字。

问:我的第二个问题是，这栋房子的这间公寓，是你在中国的第一个住处吗?

K: 对的，我觉得那时候我们的运气很好。因为我们刚刚来的时候是2006年年底，所以我们刚来的时候住在浦江饭店，在找房子。但是我们那时候不认识这个地方，不认识上海，不知道想住在什么地方，就看到了“法租界”的环境很好，路上都是好房子，然后就在“craiglist.com”，一个外国人喜欢的网站，找到了一个广告，就是这个房子。我们一来的时候，一看到这套房子，那个圆形(券廊)，都希望(广告上的)就是这个房子。原来就是这个房子，我们真的很开心。一看到这个房子，那时候太阳很好，光线非常好，一下子就喜欢上了，就开始住在这里了。从2007年1月1日，就开始住在这里了。

张霞在家中

问:You know, people sometimes are looking for some place to stay, they just imagine it would be really good to stay in this building, if they do stay with this building and they find a lot of things uncomfortable. Do you have those kinds of feeling?(人们在寻找地方住的时候，总是觉得能住在这栋楼里就好了，但要是他们真的住在这里，会觉得很多地方都不太舒适。你有这种感觉吗?)

A: New apartments are bigger and cheaper. Now especially for the people who want to live in old apartment. Foreigners with children have romantic idea of living in an old building, but the radiator and the water heater and the pipes, and relations and sounds and stuff, it”s not the same. So lots of people grab kind of easy way from living in an old apartment and wind up getting, whatever, Pudong or a new place. But we love it and we love the community here, and would not live in Shanghai if we did not live in a place which has character that we like about Shanghai. Katya is an historian and studies old houses and old communities. So it”s appropriate that we live here.(新造的公寓面积更大，也更便宜。特别是对于住在老式公寓的人来说。带着孩子的外国人对于住在老建筑里怀着一种浪漫的理想，但暖气片、热水器、管道，还有(人际)关系，嘈杂的声音，堆积的杂物等等都不复如前。所以很多人不再选择住在老式公寓中，最后选择了浦东或其他新的地方。但我们喜爱这里，也喜爱这里的社区。如果我们不住在自己喜爱的富有上海特色的住所，就不会住在上海。Katya是个历史学者，也在学习研究历史建筑和历史社区，所以我们住在这里最适合不过了。)

厨房一角

问: Really? So this is even Katya”s project?(真的吗，所以这是Katya从事的项目吗?)

K: Yeah. This is my project, but was not our project when we came to Shanghai. That was very open about what Shanghai has to offer. After we spent some time in the city to walk and in interesting neighbourhood, and took a lot of photographs, I began to study the subjects of heritage, and historic neighbourhood is what I study now, especially focussing on Russian heritage here in Shanghai.(没错，这是我的项目，但不是我们来上海时做的项目。我们对于上海能提供什么怀着非常开放的观点。我们在城市内漫步，拜访了有意思的社区，拍了很多照片，而我开始学习这里的历史，以及我现在学的历史社区，特别是专攻上海的俄国历史。)

This building had many Russians living. In 30s we have the list of, great number of them, about a third, last names I have seen on the list of Russian. They were wealthy Russians, to live here. 这栋大楼里曾经住了许多俄国人。30年代有(住户的)名单，我在名单上看到大约三分之一的姓氏都是俄国人。能住在这里都是有钱的俄国人。

A: The city did renovation of this building five years ago. Covered with scaffolding on lots of walls and the material of the walls been torn down, and there was Russian graffiti that was exposed on the fourth floor. Someone from the early 20s have written...(大楼5年前进行了重新修整，搭了许多脚手架，墙上的材料都被铲了下来，四楼的墙上露出当时俄文的涂鸦，有人在 20年代初期写下的......)

K: There was a name of Communist novel called How the Steel was Tempered, we just found it on the peeling wall before all the renovation on the fourth floor. In the other elevator, there was inscription, the name o f that novel .( 有一本讲述共产党人的小说叫作《钢铁是怎样炼成的》。我们在四楼剥落的墙上发现了这行字。在大楼另外一部电梯中，也看到有人把小说名刻在了上面。)

问: You find in archives?(您是在档案里看到的吗?)

K: In the building on the wall. Then they got painted over. It”s been painted over now, it”s all clean. You can”t see anymore. The old wall is gone.(是在大楼里的墙上，现在全被涂上了，一干二净。再也看不到了，旧墙不复存在了。)

张霞家的书架

问: The project, Katya, your project is photograph or video?(Katya，您的项目主要是摄影还是摄像?)

K: There are several things coming through. All together there will be a book. Russians in Shanghai. Mainly human stories based on actual memoirs and interviews, plus superpose that my knowledge of the area and acual address.(很多形式一起进行，不过最终会呈现在一本书上，讲述在上海的俄国人，大部分是根据回忆录和采访写就的人的故事，再加上我对于周边区域的了解和相关知识。)

问: Do you think the next book of you will mention about this building?(那您的下一本书里会提到这栋建筑吗?)

K: Well of course. Partially because the story I like the most is from 1930-1933, Agnes Smedley.(当然，部分因为我最喜欢的故事是1930年到1933年的，艾格尼斯·史沫特莱。)

1930 to 1933 for three years. American journalist Agnes Smedley lived on third floor in apartment 303. And she was friend of many Communists, The Association of International Communist, and she held a lot of meetings where she introduced Russian, a Soviet spy to Chinese Communist in her apartment in the building. So of course, there was a lot of interesting stuff. This will be mentioned in the book.(1930年到1933年，这三年。美国记者艾格尼斯·史沫特莱住在三楼的303公寓里。她和很多共产党人以及共产国际是朋友。她在自己的公寓里召开了很多会面，介绍一位苏联间谍给中国共产党。所以当然有很多有趣的故事。这个故事也会在书里提到。)

问: Tell me more about the interviews you did with this building or the link with the building it”s like the story under the flat, there is a Communist meeting there. Do you have any other stories there?(再和我说说，有关这栋建筑您所做的采访。比如您所说的，在公寓里隐藏的共产党人会面。您还有其他类似的故事吗?)

K: There are others, archives of the French Municipal Council. This is what they have is the list of all the tenants, so you can always track down who”s been here for a long time. For example, our apartment was always inhabited by a single family, name last name was Bill Ben, he”s from British.(其他故事，可以在法租界公董局的档案里找到。他们有一份租户的名单，可以查得到谁在那里住了很久。比如说我们现在的公寓，曾经一个叫比尔·本的人一直住着，他来自英国。)

问: Do you know the name?(找得到这样的名字吗?)

K: Yes, so Bill Ben is like all the English name, land owners. So evidently, probably a banker, maybe a general constructor, many years in Shanghai, all in this apartment. I wasn”t able to trace what happened to him or where he went. He must have gone out of China comfortably or just left this house behind.(对，比尔·本就是英国名字，是房主，所以他可能是个银行家，或者是总建造师，在上海这套公寓里住了很多年。我没办法找到后来他怎么样，去了哪里。）

张霞家的门口

问: Another question is, you live this building about eight years already? Do you see any change from your experience?(还有一个问题，您在这栋大楼里已经住了8年了，就您个人经历而言，有没有看到过什么变化?)

K: Yeah. Several things. When we first came, the impression as if the building has been painted from inside since 1930s, we found it beautiful, we found the peeling paint, very beautiful and angelic, very interesting.(有很多变化。我们刚来的时候，这里面的感觉就像自30年代后就没有粉刷过。我们觉得很美，觉得剥落的油漆很漂亮，很有趣。)

A: I think that significant change we”ve seen over eight years, when we were discussing upstairs downstairs difference of society and community here in the building, that”s changing, because economically, it is in the interest of Chinese tenants to sub-lend tenants who are gonna pay more, so basically more and more rich foreigners came here. And I suspect the diversity, which we love about the building, we hope it stays, we hope that these small clerestory of families and their relatives that they stay here as long as possible, when the old resident stay here as long as possible. (我觉得我们8年来最重大的改变是，当我们开始提到这栋楼，楼上、楼下的社会阶层不同，现在这个方面也在改变。因为从经济角度来说，中国住户们会把房子租给付更多钱的人，所以越来越多有钱的外国人会住进来。我觉得这会影响这里的多样性，而多样性正是我们喜爱这栋楼的原因。我们希望它能保持一点，希望那些住在狭小长廊空间里的人，和他们的亲戚，能尽可能地留下来，老居民能在这里尽可能多住一会儿。)

以上图文节选自《住在武康大楼》（陈保平 陈丹燕 著），同济大学出版社2020年1月第1版

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